SuperChiefer84 posted:

Jon, if the TMCC receiver board is not the issue (no programming) then the RCMC board must be where the engine ID is stored or should be stored correct?

Wouldn't it make sense for Lionel to have a backdoor something or other that they can access for programming.  If it were to leak, I'm sure the high tech guys here would be able to take advantage of it.  If not re-programming, are we talking about throwing away the boards and replacing?  I would love to see the production numbers on this set.  at 5 minutes per train, it will be a while in the process.  I'm glad I can run some other stuff during their absence.  

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

What’s a shame is that items like these, ones with known defects, will continue to be sold to uninformed hobbyists by all the dealers with no mention of the defect.

Happens all the time.

They should all be recalled, repaired, tested, and then returned to the dealers.

Buyer beware.

Craignor posted:

What’s a shame is that items like these, ones with known defects, will continue to be sold to uninformed hobbyists by all the dealers with no mention of the defect.

Happens all the time.

They should all be recalled, repaired, tested, and then returned to the dealers.

Buyer beware.

You are correct. I just checked and at least 3 major online hobby shops are still in stock and offering them. 

Went to my LHS today, and they were unaware of the issue until I told them. They tested their Alco's and RS11's while I was there and both had the issue. They were packing them up and sending them back.

Shame too, because I was going pick up a BN RS-11 but will hold off now. With that said I was able to see the Halloween one in action, and I was blown away by the sounds, really cool!

Obviously what Jon is saying is correct, the RCMC has the issue.  I was wondering how they programmed the TMCC receiver, now I know.

Just got off the phone with Lionel Service.  We were going through the RMA generation and was told to hold a minute.  The young man came back on and told me they would be getting back to me to arrange the RMA.  He told me he never heard the issue we are experiencing.  My gut is that they are working on a protocol for the repairs.  I think the quantity will be pretty high.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

tangoman posted:

just called lionel. they are not taking any warranty work on these engines at this time. said to call back in a week. grrrrr not happy. 

I did better than you.  My Lionel guy said he would call back when they are ready.

 

Do you really think he will call back?  Let's see.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

I'm a little surprised to hear that, considering that Dave was on this  thread weeks ago explaining what they were going to do to fix them. And since I sent my original set back to Concord for a refund about 3 weeks ago I know they have a set to work out the fix on. I guess Bryant is right...they need time to set up a protocol.

I emailed Katie on June 27 about the problem, so I know they are fully aware of the issue.  Given that Lionel is usually quite fast about warranty repair, it says to me this recall will be very big.  Still, returning my set to my retailer is out of the questions since I think Lionel will come up with a fix and the Railsounds is the best I have ever heard.  One wonders how something like this could slip through quality control, assuming there is a quality control

Pennsyforever

pennsyforever posted:

I emailed Katie on June 27 about the problem, so I know they are fully aware of the issue.  Given that Lionel is usually quite fast about warranty repair, it says to me this recall will be very big.  Still, returning my set to my retailer is out of the questions since I think Lionel will come up with a fix and the Railsounds is the best I have ever heard.  One wonders how something like this could slip through quality control, assuming there is a quality control

Pennsyforever

I agree with you.  I will look for a set  of Santa Fe s at York. I'm just going to hand them over to Dave to fix when I see him there. 

J Daddy posted:
pennsyforever posted:

I emailed Katie on June 27 about the problem, so I know they are fully aware of the issue.  Given that Lionel is usually quite fast about warranty repair, it says to me this recall will be very big.  Still, returning my set to my retailer is out of the questions since I think Lionel will come up with a fix and the Railsounds is the best I have ever heard.  One wonders how something like this could slip through quality control, assuming there is a quality control

Pennsyforever

I agree with you.  I will look for a set  of Santa Fe s at York. I'm just going to hand them over to Dave to fix when I see him there. 

Having been one of the original posters on this topic with my NYC locos, I could not help myself.  I just ordered the UP version also.  I told my dealer that the packing should be good because it is most likely going to Concord after I receive them.  They are beautiful engines and will be a nice diesel puller when not using my new Challenger, which is being delayed as we speak.

Am I nuts?  Yes.  I have 2 complete Acela sets running flawlessly on my layout.  Who can top that in returning for punishment.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

J Daddy posted:

I agree with you.  I will look for a set  of Santa Fe s at York. I'm just going to hand them over to Dave to fix when I see him there. 

Good luck.  Dave and Dean didn't attend last fall and Lionel not at all in the spring.  If Lionel continues to focus on other shows I doubt we'll see any technical folks at York for some time.

Marty

 

Below the Signature...

"Awesome Treksgiving dinner with Captain Kirk"

 

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:
J Daddy posted:
pennsyforever posted:

I emailed Katie on June 27 about the problem, so I know they are fully aware of the issue.  Given that Lionel is usually quite fast about warranty repair, it says to me this recall will be very big.  Still, returning my set to my retailer is out of the questions since I think Lionel will come up with a fix and the Railsounds is the best I have ever heard.  One wonders how something like this could slip through quality control, assuming there is a quality control

Pennsyforever

I agree with you.  I will look for a set  of Santa Fe s at York. I'm just going to hand them over to Dave to fix when I see him there. 

Having been one of the original posters on this topic with my NYC locos, I could not help myself.  I just ordered the UP version also.  I told my dealer that the packing should be good because it is most likely going to Concord after I receive them.  They are beautiful engines and will be a nice diesel puller when not using my new Challenger, which is being delayed as we speak.

Am I nuts?  Yes.  I have 2 complete Acela sets running flawlessly on my layout.  Who can top that in returning for punishment.

Good for you Bryant!! I'm on my 3rd NYC set after returning the first 2 which were no good. Even after 2 disasters I still got another because the good outweighs the bad. Taking your advice (thank you) I ordered my new set from Steve at MrMuffins and the third time was the charm. This set has none of the serious issues the first 2 had and I am enjoying the heck out of running them! Thanks again Bryant and Steve!

BNSF-Matt posted:

@JamesRx Glad to see you have a working set now. Even though this ID issue is a bummer, the set gets an A+ in every other category for me. I will wait it out and see what options Lionel has for folks. 

Thanks so much Matt! I have spent so many hours close up with these engines that I know Every tiny imperfection, including many that a normal person would never notice! But even with all that, and I am a bit of a perfectionist, I still would not trade them because what’s great about them outweighs all the flaws. I don’t know anything about market share in the O gauge train market but I would venture to say that if Lionell could get control of their quality issues they would rule the market because no other trains in this price range have the realism in terms of look and sound that Lionel has. They obviously put a great deal of effort into the design, but just can’t get the QC we are looking for and I’m sure that’s just economics.

Well, i got 4 sets of these.  I tested all of them in engine #1 and they all worked great.  I seldom program until I run them...  too many legacy engines all with similar cab numbers.

I programmed my Santa Fe last night as train #4 shut it down and restarted it worked fine.  I will try again tonite...

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

Super O Bob posted:

Well, i got 4 sets of these.  I tested all of them in engine #1 and they all worked great.  I seldom program until I run them...  too many legacy engines all with similar cab numbers.

I programmed my Santa Fe last night as train #4 shut it down and restarted it worked fine.  I will try again tonite...

Just FYI.  Shutting down does not seem to be the issue.  It seems to rear its ugly head if you kill transformer power to the track.  I have learned to park my ALCOs in the front of the layout until I get them sent back.  At this point I hope the UPs I ordered are fine.  I really don't care if they have to go back also.  Kind of "part of the practice".  I have many other trains to play with until then.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:
Super O Bob posted:

Well, i got 4 sets of these.  I tested all of them in engine #1 and they all worked great.  I seldom program until I run them...  too many legacy engines all with similar cab numbers.

I programmed my Santa Fe last night as train #4 shut it down and restarted it worked fine.  I will try again tonite...

Just FYI.  Shutting down does not seem to be the issue.  It seems to rear its ugly head if you kill transformer power to the track.  I have learned to park my ALCOs in the front of the layout until I get them sent back.  At this point I hope the UPs I ordered are fine.  I really don't care if they have to go back also.  Kind of "part of the practice".  I have many other trains to play with until then.

Thanks for heads up.  I just kill power to the transformer...  so will see if it keeps the memory, but otherwise, i could run as engine 1 and seems to be no issue...  

Someone said its on the ac9 also?  I have to test mine...  still running that as engine 1!

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

MartyE posted:
J Daddy posted:

I agree with you.  I will look for a set  of Santa Fe s at York. I'm just going to hand them over to Dave to fix when I see him there. 

Good luck.  Dave and Dean didn't attend last fall and Lionel not at all in the spring.  If Lionel continues to focus on other shows I doubt we'll see any technical folks at York for some time.

WHAT ?  Then who did I see at the TCA museum.  And at smokey bones last April? Ryan always supports us.

J Daddy posted:
MartyE posted:
J Daddy posted:

I agree with you.  I will look for a set  of Santa Fe s at York. I'm just going to hand them over to Dave to fix when I see him there. 

Good luck.  Dave and Dean didn't attend last fall and Lionel not at all in the spring.  If Lionel continues to focus on other shows I doubt we'll see any technical folks at York for some time.

WHAT ?  Then who did I see at the TCA museum.  And at smokey bones last April? Ryan always supports us.

Ryan only went to the museum and Smokey Bones. If he attended the show I didn't see him. Lionel had no booth in April. 

Marty

 

Below the Signature...

"Awesome Treksgiving dinner with Captain Kirk"

 

Super O Bob posted:
Someone said its on the ac9 also?  I have to test mine...  still running that as engine 1!

Well, regarding the AC9, I have been following this thread and being thankful I did not order any Alcos but I have not seen a reference here to the AC9s having an ID issue. HOWEVER, I have two and one of them will not take a change in the engine number from 1 so I have run it as that ever since. Figured it was a RUN/PGM switch issue but have not had time to have a look at it.

In my case, the engine just does not respond to being put in PGM mode and having a new ID set. 

This may or may not be the same thing as the board issues referred to above. But it is very annoying as I waited until AFTER these BTO engines were issued and got favorable reports on this forum before I got them.

BTW, my other AC9 has no slow speed control although every other feature works. That one's not going back to Lionel  but to an independent service tech. 

J Daddy posted:
MartyE posted:
J Daddy posted:

I agree with you.  I will look for a set  of Santa Fe s at York. I'm just going to hand them over to Dave to fix when I see him there. 

Good luck.  Dave and Dean didn't attend last fall and Lionel not at all in the spring.  If Lionel continues to focus on other shows I doubt we'll see any technical folks at York for some time.

WHAT ?  Then who did I see at the TCA museum.  And at smokey bones last April? Ryan always supports us.

That was Ryan.  Maybe you didnt recognize him.  He is working on that beard.  Maybe he likes civil war reinacting, i know he digs 19th century steam!

He was at the Wed TCA museum...

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

J Daddy posted:

Hey Bob - try actually changing the engine ID to a new number.  Some are fine . Some are not 

Yup did that.  I tested my Santa Fe, PRR, NYC, and SP.  All of them worked, took new numbers and kept them.  Then on the 4th test of my Santa Fe, the lead A unit defaulted back to engine1, but the trailing A unit kept its number.  So maybe this is intermittant?  I will test them all again tomorrow and see if they all work.

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

Hancock52 posted:
Super O Bob posted:
Someone said its on the ac9 also?  I have to test mine...  still running that as engine 1!

Well, regarding the AC9, I have been following this thread and being thankful I did not order any Alcos but I have not seen a reference here to the AC9s having an ID issue. HOWEVER, I have two and one of them will not take a change in the engine number from 1 so I have run it as that ever since. Figured it was a RUN/PGM switch issue but have not had time to have a look at it.

In my case, the engine just does not respond to being put in PGM mode and having a new ID set. 

This may or may not be the same thing as the board issues referred to above. But it is very annoying as I waited until AFTER these BTO engines were issued and got favorable reports on this forum before I got them.

BTW, my other AC9 has no slow speed control although every other feature works. That one's not going back to Lionel  but to an independent service tech. 

I have two legacy AC9's.  I just tested both.  3805 and 3811.  Both work perfect.  I have had the 3805 for about a year?  Since it came out.  Its seen alot of action on my layout.  Its kept its number 5.  The daylight 3811, i just got last month.  I just test programmed it to number 11 and it holds its number.  These are great engines...

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

Super O Bob posted:
J Daddy posted:
MartyE posted:
J Daddy posted:

I agree with you.  I will look for a set  of Santa Fe s at York. I'm just going to hand them over to Dave to fix when I see him there. 

Good luck.  Dave and Dean didn't attend last fall and Lionel not at all in the spring.  If Lionel continues to focus on other shows I doubt we'll see any technical folks at York for some time.

WHAT ?  Then who did I see at the TCA museum.  And at smokey bones last April? Ryan always supports us.

That was Ryan.  Maybe you didnt recognize him.  He is working on that beard.  Maybe he likes civil war reinacting, i know he digs 19th century steam!

He was at the Wed TCA museum...

LOL...  you mean I ate and drank for 2 hours with the wrong person? !!! 

All kidding aside Ryan will be at York this October and Lionel will have a booth.  

It will be interesting to see if the PA's at the show will have been returned and repaired and ready to go...

Super O Bob posted:
J Daddy posted:

Hey Bob - try actually changing the engine ID to a new number.  Some are fine . Some are not 

Yup did that.  I tested my Santa Fe, PRR, NYC, and SP.  All of them worked, took new numbers and kept them.  Then on the 4th test of my Santa Fe, the lead A unit defaulted back to engine1, but the trailing A unit kept its number.  So maybe this is intermittant?  I will test them all again tomorrow and see if they all work.

Yep, had the same issue here. Tested all of Tom's stock at GL's and it was usually the A units. about 50 percent. 

Yea, they moved service...  to a new building....  i am waiting till august as well to send in my PA.

I have two new PAs sets (Rio Grande and UP) arriving today from Nick Smith...  so will test them too...  so far only intermittant issue found (one time) on the Santa Fe lead A unit.  Tested same engine again thismorning and it worked fine.  Programmed a new number and it held it for several power cycles....  will test more today...

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

Super O Bob posted:

Yea, they moved service...  to a new building....  i am waiting till august as well to send in my PA.

They are gonna need a bigger building and a larger staff to get all these units turned around plus the normal defective units.

BobbyD posted:
Super O Bob posted:

Yea, they moved service...  to a new building....  i am waiting till august as well to send in my PA.

They are gonna need a bigger building and a larger staff to get all these units turned around plus the normal defective units.

Larger building, yes.  larger staff, no way.  As a manufacturer in a mature market (Geezers from Caesars that we are) with declining sales (assuming less buyers each year) labor is the 1st thing that is looked at to be chopped.  I think we will see things get through the QA process as this happens.  In reality, we will probably have to handle some defects or fixes on our own.  When a company is held by outside investors, there is less empathy toward the customer and most attention paid to profits.  Fact of life.  We see this in my industry (Industrial Laundry Equipment Manufacturing) and the results have been similar.

Hopefully the move logistically will be smoother and efficient for them.  By description the department was spread out with the older system and facility.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

Exactly right Bryant.  as I mentioned in a previous post, I work for a major player in healthcare service and whenever the stock price goes down the first thing they look to cut is Staffing. Payroll is the one thing they have control over in our Market and I'm sure it's the same for many other Industries. As you said, fact of life. But that fact will inevitably lead to a decline in customer service.

Geezers from Caesars that we are) with declining sales (assuming less buyers each year) 
 
That's funny!  Havent heard that one!
 
Lionel has said they have had some very strong performance in recent year(s)...  the starter sets carry them.  Several guys in my office have kids that built great layouts and love Lionel...  so there is a future...  might be smaller but it will be there....

 

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

BNSF-Matt posted:

My UP ABA held the ID for about a week with about a 10-12 power cycles before it reset. It's seem pretty random, which is kind of strange for an EEPROM if that's what's holding the ID number.

Thats about what i got.  I have 4 sets, all work fine, then one did it last night.

Actually, i build lashups so often, it only takes me a few seconds cause of the easy access switch hatches, i could reprogram if and when it happens...  if its that intermittant

 

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

JamesRx posted:

Exactly right Bryant.  as I mentioned in a previous post, I work for a major player in healthcare service and whenever the stock price goes down the first thing they look to cut is Staffing. Payroll is the one thing they have control over in our Market and I'm sure it's the same for many other Industries. As you said, fact of life. But that fact will inevitably lead to a decline in customer service.

The operative word is inevitability at the end of your post.  It wont get better unless sales increase.  Cost of sales percentage has probably been on an incline and all they can do is try to mitigate it by cutting costs.  We have a phrase "you can cut cost to save expense, but you cannot cut costs to attain profitability.

 

If a major manufacturer of toy trains tried to sell their business, what would outside investors say when they studied this industry.  How would you value your business with respect to earnings and what would you say 5top entice a buyer.  I'm glad I have no desire to buy a train company, but it would be interesting tor part of executive management to deal with the challenges.  Certainly the products would be very interesting.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

Super O Bob posted:
BNSF-Matt posted:

My UP ABA held the ID for about a week with about a 10-12 power cycles before it reset. It's seem pretty random, which is kind of strange for an EEPROM if that's what's holding the ID number.

Thats about what i got.  I have 4 sets, all work fine, then one did it last night.

Actually, i build lashups so often, it only takes me a few seconds cause of the easy access switch hatches, i could reprogram if and when it happens...  if its that intermittant

 

Bob,

Just make sure you power down the layout where the engine is accessible to re-address.  I made the mistake before learning this problem, of parking my engines at the back of the layout.  After 2 times of crawling, never again.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

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