N & W Y6b Lionel JLC or MTH ??

For what it's with the "most correct" N&W  Y6b, at a reasonable price, is/was the Sunset/3rd Rail model.

I don't know much about the MTH Y6b, but, I do know that the early runs did not have the correct smokestack. It was straight up instead of being slanted forward. I am thinking that they corrected this on late runs, but, I'm not sure. Be careful.

Hot Water posted:

For what it's with the "most correct" N&W  Y6b, at a reasonable price, is/was the Sunset/3rd Rail model.

Ditto for what "Hot Water" posted ,as I've seen the MTH/Lionel, and from what I've seen, they're not even close to the Sunset-3rd Rail Model. Try their site, as I believe they may have a model or 2 left over, and I believe they have the latest ERR electronics, and sound system which from what I've been told, it is the 5.0 sound!.............................Brandy! 

Well better yet, go to the search and enter N&W 3rd Rail Y6b, then check out the pics and video!...........

I voted with my wallet and bought the JLC Y6b.

I agree that the Sunset 3rd Rail is the best option for a 2 rail model.     You won't have to lighten your wallet with a big conversion job by whoever.  

I had a sunset one for a review and ran it on my layout for awhile.     A friend had loaned it to me to review for a magazine.   It ran great and would go smoothly around 48 inch radius.   I did not ry anything smaller.   

The detail was very nice and it did not have the "thick" look like some diecast stuff does on running boards and window frames and tender coal boards.

Gilly@N&W posted:

I voted with my wallet and bought the JLC Y6b.

So,,,,,,you purchased a less expensive 3-Rail model?

Gilly,    I have the Lionel JLC Y6b and love it.  As you said, for the price it cannot be beat.  I did look at the MTH, but the electronics and control system are not as good as I have experience with the TMCC based control.  I do have 3rd rail engines, also, and like  both manufacturers.

Jesse  TCA

I guess I am confused as to why so many are advising to purchase a 3-rail model and then convert it to 2 rail as opposed to just buying a 2 rail model to begin with?     the Sunset 3rd Rail is a good model, and I think either MG or USH also imported this model.     The 2 rail models are not impossible to find at 2-rail train shows.

Dear Jim and list,

The reason I am looking to purchase a 3 rail model is I have not seen a Y6b by any 2 rail manufacturer at Strasburg or CV shows. 

I have posted a WTB a 2 rail Y6b on Oscaleyardsale yahoo group site to no avail.

Since Joe F. has converted 46 locos for me and paying the right cash price for the 3 rail model,many times it all works out in the wash cost wise.

I thank you for all your suggestions.

John P.Dunn Sr.

If you aren't going to the Chicago March Meet I would have someone look for you.  There probably a 99% chance there will be a 2-rail Sunset/3rdRail Y-6b there.

VGN64 posted:

If you aren't going to the Chicago March Meet I would have someone look for you.  There probably a 99% chance there will be a 2-rail Sunset/3rdRail Y-6b there.

An excellent suggestion. Maybe he would settle for an N&W Y6a?  Sunset/3rd Rail offered those also, in both 2-Rail and 3-Rail.

John,

Obviously I will be in Chicago. I'll e-mail you about some options for a Y-6.

Bob

Bob H.,

You are truly one of the nicest folks in this hobby.

Simon

Simon Winter posted:

Bob H.,

You are truly one of the nicest folks in this hobby.

Simon

 

Simon, Thank you , but I am sure that opinion is not shared by all.

Maybe not but shared by all who count.

The Sunset will NEVER have zinc rot.

I agree with Simon and Tom.  That makes at least three!

Ed

Me too Bob. That makes 4.

Good luck on your quest John.

Stupid question, but Sunset uses the older, less feature rich TMCC doesn't it?  If the choice is between a TMCC Sunset model and a Lionel Legacy model, with whistle steam too, it's an easy choice for me, a non-rivet counter who is somewhat price conscious.  If you add MTH as an option, I would still go with Legacy.  Our entree into the hobby a few years back was via MTH and not one engine over these past 4 years has functioned consistently, nor does the DCS work without the more-than-occasional false fault.  If the Sunset has the rivets or other more realistic part details and that's what appeals to you over Legacy features and additional smoke features, and price is irrelevant, then perhaps the Sunset model is for you. 

Peter

PJB posted:

Stupid question, but Sunset uses the older, less feature rich TMCC doesn't it?  If the choice is between a TMCC Sunset model and a Lionel Legacy model, with whistle steam too, it's an easy choice for me, a non-rivet counter who is somewhat price conscious.  If you add MTH as an option, I would still go with Legacy.  Our entree into the hobby a few years back was via MTH and not one engine over these past 4 years has functioned consistently, nor does the DCS work without the more-than-occasional false fault.  If the Sunset has the rivets or other more realistic part details and that's what appeals to you over Legacy features and additional smoke features, and price is irrelevant, then perhaps the Sunset model is for you. 

Peter

The Sunset/3rd Rail, as well as the Golden Gate Depot, models for 3-Rail customers come equipped with ERR TMCC command control, licensed from Lionel. Lionel has NOT licensed ANYTHING related to their "Legacy" control system! Just as MTH has NOT licensed ANYTHING related to their "DCS" system", however MTH does offer "DCS up-grade kits" (over $250? not including installation labor) for anyone desiring to up-grade their model to "DCS 3.0".

In my opinion, all that swinging whistle, and/or smoking bell crap is simply more clap-trap stuff that quickly fails. I hope Sunset/3rd Rail NEVER even considers ANY of that stuff! I don't even use the smoke feature as it messes up the weathering as well as the scenery!

Hot Water posted:

In my opinion, all that swinging whistle, and/or smoking bell crap is simply more clap-trap stuff that quickly fails. I hope Sunset/3rd Rail NEVER even considers ANY of that stuff! I don't even use the smoke feature as it messes up the weathering as well as the scenery!

Amen brother!

Not only that but I can imagine engines with all the smoking parts must be a nightmare for a tech to work on, just getting the boiler off/on must be challenging.

My vote is a non rivet counter vote. The Lionel versions are more than detailed enough for me. I don't know nearly as much as most of the posters here concerning steam locomotives and certainly not the names and functions of the various pieces of machinery. I can tell you this, however. I have both Lionel scale versions and my Legacy version with whistle steam has an amazing hooter whistle which echoes like it was in a "holler," runs so slowly you would smile, and I adore the whistle steam. When it comes to choosing, I love the sound, operation and whistle steam much more than whether or not the stack is exact.

Scrappy

Hot Water posted: ...... In my opinion, all that swinging whistle, and/or smoking bell crap is simply more clap-trap ....

Many folks feel that the notion of counting rivets on these things is clap-trap crap. So, it's all good.

My Legacy Y6b is one of my most favorite toys in the world.

EBT Jim posted:

 

  

Hot Water posted: ...... In my opinion, all that swinging whistle, and/or smoking bell crap is simply more clap-trap ....

Many folks feel that the notion of counting rivets on these things is clap-trap crap. So, it's all good.

My Legacy Y6b is one of my most favorite toys in the world.

Maybe but, please remember that both you and "Scrappy" have posted your comments to the 2-Rail SCALE Forum. Thus the modelers here simply are not interested in all the "smoke & mirrors" associated with the "toy train" world. Just my opinion but, I would much rather a fully round boiler and maybe even operating/reversing valve gear  instead of smoking whistles and swinging bells, especially when the prototype steam locomotive actually had a "fixed bell" anyway!

Hot Water posted

Maybe but, please remember that both you and "Scrappy" have posted your comments to the 2-Rail SCALE Forum. Thus the modelers here simply are not interested in all the "smoke & mirrors" associated with the "toy train" world. Just my opinion but, I would much rather a fully round boiler and maybe even operating/reversing valve gear  instead of smoking whistles and swinging bells, especially when the prototype steam locomotive actually had a "fixed bell" anyway!

HW,

That opinion is shared by the very vast majority of 2 rail modelers I talk to at shows. Ironically, just as you were making this post I was e-mailing a 2 rail fellow about how many times I am asked at York why Sunset does not put swinging bells on their steam power. My answer is always "air ringer bells" with the Strasburg version of the N&W 4-8-0 being the exception as I recall.

My experience is that many 2 railers are becoming interested in sound but not the smoking brakemen type features.

Hot Water posted:

Gilly@N&W posted:

I voted with my wallet and bought the JLC Y6b.

So,,,,,,you purchased a less expensive 3-Rail model?

You could say that. However, it is highly unlikely that any of the Lionel JLC line will ever make a magazine article top 10 list of "Most Affordable O Scale Locomotives".  

As for all the fancy doo-dads; the more features added on, the more there is to break.....

rheil posted:

Hot Water posted

Maybe but, please remember that both you and "Scrappy" have posted your comments to the 2-Rail SCALE Forum. Thus the modelers here simply are not interested in all the "smoke & mirrors" associated with the "toy train" world. Just my opinion but, I would much rather a fully round boiler and maybe even operating/reversing valve gear  instead of smoking whistles and swinging bells, especially when the prototype steam locomotive actually had a "fixed bell" anyway!

HW,

That opinion is shared by the very vast majority of 2 rail modelers I talk to at shows. Ironically, just as you were making this post I was e-mailing a 2 rail fellow about how many times I am asked at York why Sunset does not put swinging bells on their steam power. My answer is always "air ringer bells" with the Strasburg version of the N&W 4-8-0 being the exception as I recall.

My experience is that many 2 railers are becoming interested in sound but not the smoking brakemen type features.

Even as a benighted OS3R modeler I agree with Bob. Within practical limits, quality of the modeling is everything, and the flanges aren't THAT large. I also don't use the smoke unit, for all the reasons Hot Water has mentioned.

Having said that, I chose not to buy the 3rd Rail Y6b, preferring my original JLC version. My locos get transported from home to club to be run, and setting them up with all the floppy bits requires animal sacrifice and other ablutions first. The Lionel loco is just enough more robust to reduce anxiety, barely. I have a lovely 3rd Rail C&O H-8 and that's enough for me.
Plus- the JLC Y6b has wonderful sound.

Wow, being that this is listed on the 2 Rail Scale Forum, which I am not at all Qualified to even know Locomotive Specifics, smoke stacks, piping, flanges, coal loads, Whatever, I do know What I Personally Enjoy, and it's Lionel Legacy Features....Yes, The New Lionel Legacy Y6B is running on my layout, Smoking Krazy, Hooting all the way around the layout. I love controlling the entire layout with TMCC/Legacy, so to me, it's about the Toys, the Bells, The Swinging or non swinging ones, smoking whistles, Puffing Smoke units, The Voices, All the Goodies, and I know it's an individual Decision, so It's Your Choice....Nuff Sayd....

hello guys and gals.........

I would pick Sunset 3rd rail version of this engine it is because Lionel and MTH die-cast Y6B engines are heavy so it will take toll on the engines driver flanges that is made of zinc (same type of soft metal casted as part of the drivers itself with the steel tire on). So the flanges will not last long because it is soft. The Sunset 3rd rail Brass Y6B has the drivers made of coined brass centers (rims) with steel tire and flange as one piece pressed on the brass center.   I would like a Y6B myself too.  Check out the flanges first before making expensive purchase.  I believe the zinc flanges are made to last about 300 hours of run time before the flange turn into sharp like knifes.  The trick is to use the widest radius curves possible to reduce the flange wear on the engines.  The longer the engine is the heavier flange wear you have when using sharper curves. Something to think about.

Tiffany

Hot Water posted:

EBT Jim posted:

 

  

Hot Water posted: ...... In my opinion, all that swinging whistle, and/or smoking bell crap is simply more clap-trap ....

Many folks feel that the notion of counting rivets on these things is clap-trap crap. So, it's all good.

My Legacy Y6b is one of my most favorite toys in the world.

...I would much rather a fully round boiler and maybe even operating/reversing valve gear  instead of smoking whistles and swinging bells, especially when the prototype steam locomotive actually had a "fixed bell" anyway!

Yeah, and the prototype also had smoke emanating from the stack and the whistle.  So what's more realistic?  A prototypical fixed bell or a prototypical smoking stack?   While I'm not arguing smoke effects, as this is a personal choice, (per my first post), you and the poster that followed you have me wondering if being a 2-railer means you leave logic at the door.  

PJB posted

Yeah, and the prototype also had smoke emanating from the stack and the whistle.  So what's more realistic?  A prototypical fixed bell or a prototypical smoking stack?   While I'm not arguing smoke effects, as this is a personal choice, (per my first post), you and the poster that followed you have me wondering if being a 2-railer means you leave logic at the door.  

Peter, I am not following the logic of your comment that 2 railers leave logic at the door. My read is that in general 3 railers are looking for electronic features such as moving coal loads while 2 railers are not as concerned about having those type features.

Sorry about this off topic post, but I need to do it.

"Ken" .... my replies to your emails are returned to me.

Yes, the 3rd Rail Y6b is still available. He assures me it is still in perfect condition ... as I sold it to him.

I'm down your way in Union County often ... I grew up in Linden, near the Cranford border .... and  I would be happy to come to your place for a test-drive and sale. Or, you can come up to me.

Let me know.  Jim

RHEIL - if a model has a reasonable rendition of a feature seen on the prototype, then, by definition, it is prototypical on that feature.  Calling smoke effects "toyish" or "not prototypical," when the prototype has these features, makes no sense.  And the corollary is also true - if a model doesn't offer a feature seen on the prototype (e.g., fixed bell or smoking whistle), it is not prototypical on that feature. 

PJB posted:

RHEIL - some folks commented that they enjoy their Lionel 3-rail versions because of the more advanced Legacy features, the smoke features and the price point.  

The basic response from a few 2-railers was the Lionel version is: (a) "toyish" because it has things like smoke features; and (b) not "prototypical" because it doesn't offer things found on the prototype (e.g. a fixed bell).  

Applying straight logic: if a given model has a reasonable rendition of a feature seen on the prototype then, by definition, the model is prototypical - for the given feature.  For instance, if a fixed bell is seen on the prototype, a model with a fixed bell is prototypical - for this feature.  By the same token, if a prototype has "steam effects," calling a model "toyish" when it has steam effects is illogical.  In fact, a model that has stack and whistle steam is more prototypical - for these features - than a model that does not.  

All true, however,,,,,,I would MUCH rather spend my money of extra prototypically CORRECT features such as: round boilers, working valve gear (which Sunset/3rd Rail did on the last issue of the C&O H-8 models), a removable coal load so as to replicate some sort of depleted coal supply, easily adjustable engine to tender drawbar for closer coupling, cab to tender deck plate, and ALL components on the boiler being separately applied investment castings and NOT just "cast in".

Again, it is my opinion but, all those "smoke effects" mess up the weathering and thus are pretty much useless, to me anyway.  Besides, on a nice warm/hot day, the real steam vapor exiting from the whistle usually can't be seen anyway.

Hot Water - yes, but that's a personal like/dislike - and you're entitled to it - but has nothing to do with whether a given model is more or less prototypical.  

My OPINION is that anyone (2r or 3r) who wants to sit around and suck up "smoke" is not the sharpest tack in the box, and ranting about 2r vs 3r is a waste of time. Besides, any of you 3 railers who were really serious would go 3R P48.  (I'm just KIDDING gang!)

Simon

"Again, it is my opinion but, all those "smoke effects" mess up the weathering and thus are pretty much useless, to me anyway. Besides, on a nice warm/hot day, the real steam vapor exiting from the whistle usually can't be seen anyway." . . . . . Hot Water

I am fascinated by these ideas. As a matter of fact I have not seen these before and, I believe, they add to our discussion. 

1) Now, with regard to achieving prototypical accuracy we will not want to allow what normally happens to a prototypical locomotive (i.e. the effect of water vapor, steam, etc. ) to change its appearance so we should not be interested in whistle steam. How whistle steam might impact weathering on a loco is not clear. My weathering is painted or I use Bragdon powders. I imagine the lamp oil being changed to vapor could impact the weathering, but that in and of itself, is prototypical. I don't think my weathering would be affected. In all my years of using smoke fluid, I have seen no change in the paint on the loco even when I spill it.

2) On a warm day we normally do not see the steam vapor from a locomotive whistle. True. The fascinating thing is, we could operate our models on a cold day so we could see the whistle steam. Wouldn't that make using whistle steam fun?

It seems to me that even when logical voices make sound arguments for three rail whistle steam models, there are still some who try to portray them as non prototypical on a two rail OGR Forum board. To make it even more interesting, some of these folks are three rail "Hi Railers" who try to make these same arguments. The logic in this is escaping me.

Uh oh, just saw another post suggesting I am "not the smartest tack in the drawer" because I sit there and suck up smoke. Well, Mister, I smoke cigars, too and I am really smart. So there. By the way, I installed an exhaust fan in my train room, so I am exhausted.

Simon Winter posted:

My OPINION is that anyone (2r or 3r) who wants to sit around and suck up "smoke" is not the sharpest tack in the box, and ranting about 2r vs 3r is a waste of time. Besides, any of you 3 railers who were really serious would go 3R P48.  (I'm just KIDDING gang!)

Simon

 

Yes, cubed.  And, I have yet to see any smoke effect from any model come close to looking like anything prototypical regardless of the number of rails. 

I don't care about any of the "special effects" that are offered (waste of money) and in the very rare instances where I'm actually buying an engine new, I'm looking for absolute accuracy of the model as representing the prototype and all of the specific dimensions and details in place where they belong.  Everything else is at best secondary or irrelevant.

Mr. SCHER,

To be more accurate, I am NOT a "Hi-Railer"! I'm a modeler who models in "3-Rail SCALE", with everything up-graded to Kadee couplers, NO swinging pilots on what what few diesel models I have, and many pieces of rolling stock equipped with 2-Rail SCALE wheel sets.